"Finally, and on a kind of unrelated note, I’d like to address Ion’s point that M+ should have loot disadvantages because “the activity requires four other people as opposed to coordinating and scheduling a full raid group.” I couldn’t disagree more vehemently with that line of logic, and it feels like the player base is being punished for the sins of the developers. The idea that players should be extra rewarded for putting up with the headache of finding 20 players that can all commit to playing at the same time is questionable at best. If Blizzard recognizes that the raid format is burdensome and onerous, maybe try fixing the raid format instead of incentivizing players to put up with it by throwing more loot at them. Part of the reason M+ has ascended so rapidly is because *gasp* it’s accessible. You don’t need five officers, a webpage, a Discord server and a recruitment post that you bump daily to do a +16 key. Blizzard has struck gold with M+, and rather than lean into it, Blizzard has decided that it needs to prop up raiding with favorable loot systems. Raiding is an anachronism from an era where massively multiplayer was actually the selling point. Now every game has persistent massive online worlds, and raiding has ceased to be spectacle and instead turned into homework. Let it die. M+ is the future."I can't agree more, I hope Blizzard realize this and understand our concerns before next patch, otherwise BFA and Azerite System will be a big failure.
M+ just seems harder these days, as opposed to the more tricky, tactical effort we had in Legion.
The greatest problem was and always will be the bad communication between community/testers/helpers/bugreporters etc.and Blizzard. If anything the AMA has again mostly shown this.I wouldn't go that far, to let raiding die, but i agree, that M+ seems to be to far behind in the schedules of the developer. Especially the thing with azerite armor pieces.
His claim mythic is the future raiding needs to die is beyond silly.
Awesome insights on the teeming/infested, gonna need some re-links next teeming week. Learn a ton from you JB, keep it up!
As a Mythic raider, and avid M+ player who has gotten the shaft on the whole Azerite drops thing, JB makes a lot of well worded points against this system that, while it may look like tier on the outside, really isn't. The lack of sources for these slots at competitive ilvl, and lack of non-Azerite gear for those slots as well, ends up crippling us with lower base stats, not to mention the Azerite abilities, in a way we cannot remedy except by waiting for the next reset. That feels bad.As for M+ vs raiding, I love raiding, but I love it more without gear i literally CAN'T get from other methods unless i'm stupid lucky. I don't want raiding to die. I also love M+ and want it to thrive. Gearing in modern-day WoW should utilize and encourage, but not require, both of these systems.Just like they asked us to PvP for PvE gear, you don't have to, but you can, and if you do it may be better in the long run, but that's your choice.Raid and M+ should be optional and complementary gearing avenues, not dependent on one another, not excluding one another, but supported by one another. I think both can coexist peacefully, and I hope Blizz reads the sincere feedback of some very passionate players here and can take it into consideration going forwards.
Your side note at the end of the first question needs to be seen by Ion. Totally agree with "Let it die. M+ is the future."
The solution to the Azerite gear is easy. Simply make it upgradable by using hydrocores. 5 hydro per 5 ilvl. And capping it at the ilvl of the highest M+ that you have completed on time. So +2 would be 345 capped while a player with the skills and group to do a +10 or higher on time would be capped at 370 ilvl. Not only would this allow us to target the gear we want (from mythic0, or even heroics or regs) but, it would be more incentive to learn and get better at mechanics, as that is ultimately the only thing that holds a group to lower keys.
"I find the organization involved in this one gameplay mode inconvenient, so that definitely means we should take it away from the hundreds of thousands to millions of people who enjoy it, right?"That an accurate summary, or did I miss anything?
Bring back 10 man raiding, that was a format closer to current mythic+ than vanilla 40 man with "5 officers, website and bumped up recruitment posts", it cut out a lot of "office work" and let people play together in a circle of friends rather than feeling an exercise in human resource management. People want to play the game, not a spreadsheet (do we have enough rogues for Zul? what about warlocks for G'huun?) Unfortunately for mythic+ to be "the future" it should be more open to all the classes. If it's a mainstream end game, your progress should be defined by your skill and dedication, and not whether you're a frost mage or enhancement shaman. Something has to change either in class design, or in dungeon design. You shouldn't have specs that are basically a burden to be carried by the rest of the team.
I mean, I absolutely believe that M+ is the future. Does raiding need to die for that to remain true? Probably not, but it's always a balancing act. If Blizzard "leans in" to M+ too hard and buffs up the loot enough then fewer and fewer players will feel the NEED to Raid in order to keep their character relevant to the people around them and subsequently Raiding would sort of die in a way.What needs to happen is Azerite pieces need to be able to drop from M+ and there needs to not be an ilvl cap that is inferior to what can be obtained from a Raid on those pieces.If the key is high enough and difficult enough then the players who are able to complete them on time deserve competitive loot. That's all the balance that really needs to happen here and I don't think it's asking for too much at all. Everyone would be able to do the content they enjoy and feel adequately rewarded for it.I'm not sure where the disconnect is... But that's what we want, Blizzard.
Just make it possible to get Azerite armor from M+ from bonus rolls. As M+ player, I have capped bonus roll coins and there's almost no place to use them...
Raiding needs to stay at the forefront of progression imho, mostly because of the reason that it requires effort setting up and schedules more players together. Sure its an inconvinience but it also builds a community. A guild docent need a discord and all kinds of other stuff surrounding it. If its people having fun together raids are something that brings the guild closer as a group as a whole, instead of forming a bunch of smaller fragmented groups within the guild.M+ makes people pick the people they like most and just stick with them mostly for their M+ adventures, it fragments guilds moreso than bringing them closer. Raiding counters this perfectly thanks to its flex grouping, it allows everyone to just join in and partake in the fun.Plus raiding allows for more complex boss design vs M+ bosses. Having more players means you can make tactics that require a small strike team to do something on the side (things like thorim's gauntlet in ulduar), or have 2-3 people do something (belts on siegecrafter/orbs on g'huun). Just a quick glance at the dungeon journal shows how much more complex most raid bosses are to dungeon bosses. More complex fights should reward better loot.Granted, I am all for including azerite in the M+ cache and allow both M+ and raiding to be very viable gearing systems. With tier sets gone there isn't any loot tied to raid instances so both systems should be equally rewarding in terms of its gearing limit and such. Both are fun modes and both can exist in harmony.
A guy that likes M+ thinks it's the best and everything else should go away. In other news the sky is blue and the grass is green.
M+ is destroying the already fractured WoW community. Infinitely scaleable and repeatable, boring, on the rails "content" that requires the smallest group possible, and far less coordination than raids. It should be nowhere near raids in terms of rewards.
Why a guy that does only M+ ( which is an easier content than mythic raids ) say things like " Raids must die, future is M+" ?M+ are a bad design. You do the same dungeons, with the same affixes all over again, boss tacts are easy as *!@#, mobs get +x% per key level, that's idiotic and easy. Are raids too hard for that guy?
Personally I haven't raided seriously since Cataclysm, and never was interested in Mythic raiding. I absolutely love the Mythic+ system. I don't have the time/motivation (or the friend's list anymore) to raid. That said, I disagree that raiding should die in favor of Mythic+.I also agree that Mythic+ shouldn't take a backseat to raiding. Each has their place and appeal to different players.I think they just need to find a better way to balance the two so that people who only want to raid don't feel obligated to also run Mythic+ and people who only want to run Mythic+ don't feel obligated to raid to be competitive. That's probably impossible at the Mythic raid level. Those players will always do everything they can to get any edge they can. I do think it's possible at the Heroic and Normal raid levels. While running Mythic+ dungeons every week will help groups progress is Normal/Heroic raids it's totally not necessary.For the top Mythic+ groups, they may always feel obligated to raid Mythic raids for the same reason and Mythic Raiders will feel obligated to run Mythic+ dungeons. However, I don't believe that you can ever build a gear distribution system where the top competitive players aren't doing EVERYTHING that might give them a slight advantage.You could make things closer/more balanced though.Maybe the weekly Mythic+ cache could give you some kind of currency that can be used to buy tokens for the slot you need ala the catch-up systems they normally add during content patches/used for the legendaries in Legion. They could tweak the amounts such that every so many weeks (how many weeks is the key) players who have terrible RNG luck could buy a weapon or Azerite piece. This wouldn't guarantee they get the Azerite power they want/need but it would let them keep trying every few weeks.The main issue would be how to control the item level. Do you give everyone the top level (Mythic 10/15) currently available? Maybe you tie it the highest key level a player has successfully finished that season. So if the highest key I've completed for the season is a 9, I would only be eligible for the 370 Azerite and not the 385. Of course this would probably further groups selling high level key runs to let players unlock the top gear. So maybe you tie it to the level of the key you finished last week to require players are still required to do high level keys to get the top gear.You'd want to implement it so players get more currency the higher the key they did that week. Hopefully you do it such that low level keys rewards so little that it takes a really long time to get this bonus/RNG protection gear, but that running high keys every week lets you get some bonus piece 1-2/month maybe.Ideally they can tweak the currency values in a way that is fair, and readjust as necessary every season until they get the desired balance.
I think that a system like the one used in Diablo 3 rifts to improve the ilvl of azerite gear in the mithic+ would be awesomeyou could improve the azerite pieces only if you manage to clear in time the dungeon and paying hydrocores for example.it would look like: for +10 timed you would be able to improve azerite gear to 370 for example (each time you clear the dungeon you may improve the gear in +5 ilvls if you meet certain conditions), and +15 timed 385for the sake of diversity it could add a save and you might be forced to do another dungeon ( in order to not to farm atal dazar 20 times)
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