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160

Battle for Lordaeron - Alliance and Horde Scenarios (Spoilers)

criado 14/4/2018em01:35 por perculia

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Comentado por RogueRequest This whole thing feels just wrong. Yes, I'm also referring to the Wrath Gate. Im glad, that you have the option to simply use a gas-mask and not the thrower. Now I know this is just a game, but I just couldnt do it. Chemical warfare, that is just wrong, dirty and not the horde I wanna be a part of. And yes, I take this a little serious, cause it is a big part of my life.\r
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This forsaken-problem spins out of control and tho i really dig the story-arc, I'm deeply troubled with what this does with the horde. I'm on board with Saurfang on this one, Sylvanas seems like a child going nuts because... I dont know, daddy didnt say Im proud of you. Thrall gave outcasts a home in the founding of Durotar and Orgrimmar. Jaina and Thrall worked together. I hope that this spirit will be there again in the end of battle (i refuse to call it bfa), cause kids learn from these things nowadays, and so far I am on board with a lot of lectures blizzard is giving. Dont let this be about "olol, every advantage we can get, plague on your head". It is dangerous. Just pretty please.\r
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The Horde is supposed to be the brutal merciless faction. If you prefer a more diplomatic and peaceful faction, then simply faction change. I mean you literally have beasts and undead in the Horde, you can\u2019t seriously expect us to be diplomatic and peaceful. Sylvanas is doing what Garrosh did, that\u2019s what we are supposed to do. The game, after all, is called the World of WARCRAFT.\r
If you operate with out honor than you're evil. Sigh.....do people like you and Synea have this black and white mentality with everything? Being honorable doesn't inherently make you a good person. It makes you more likable, but still evil. For example Nosferatu Zodd (Berserk) was honorable but he was still evil. Genghis Khan had a code of honor as well, but still did awful things.He often gave people he was at war with a chance to surrender. You can have honor and still be evil.\r
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Can you be a bad person and still have some honor, sure. Can you be a good person and have no honor, no. Comentado por Dracold - Orders us to blight a crowd of people that includes our own soldiers and tells us to leave them to die\r
- Blows up her own city\r
- Leaves Silvermoon alone on a continent full of extremely angry Alliance (recall that the entire reason blood elves are even in the Horde is because they felt abandoned by the Alliance, and also that they have seriously considered rejoining the Alliance before)\r
- Orders the brutal torture and slaughter of a farming\/fishing village in Stormsong to raise them as soldiers against the Kul Tirans and Alliance (you may recall that this sort of thing is literally why she was so hellbent on killing Arthas)\r
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At this point I'm pretty sure Sylvanas could stand on top of a mountain of smoldering orc corpses in the middle of Orgrimmar while eating a live baby and cackling maniacally, and y'all would still be like "she's just misunderstood".\r
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Even though I am a Horde player, I see it exactly the same.\r
Maybe I am a Horde player by mistake. I only got to Warcraft through Warcraft III and the Horde in Warcraft III was never outright evil. Maybe except for Grom Hellscream. I never understood why Thrall considered him a friend. And even his sacrifice felt rather selfish to me. Thrall even had to twist his last words to make them seem selfless.\r
But other than that, Warcraft III showed Orcs being enslaved by the Alliance or being held in concentration camps. Then they tried to escape and find a new home for themselves away from the Alliance. The founding of Durotar chapter showed the Kul Tirans specifically as not only the aggressors, but also people of dubious morals that tried to trick the Horde leaders into negotiation while planning to assassinate them before even officially declaring war. And when Jaina pleaded her father to stop, thinking that maybe he didn't even know about the peace agreement, he just responded that since Orcs were animals, there can never be peace. That to me was a very low blow. Trying to secretly start the war by crippling the Horde while Horde still believed they had truce with the Alliance... and later confess that the Alliance did indeed start the war and thinks that the entire Orcish race is simply to be eradicated because of who they are... morally, this didn't feel to me like a faction I would ever want to join.\r
I felt the same about the Blood Elf chapter. I had no idea why humans held such a contempt towards the elves. But they did.\r
The only race that seemed to be evil from the start were the Forsaken... And it didn't really make sense to me that they joined the Horde to begin with. Why would Orcs like undead humans anyway? I think it would make more sense if they were simply NPC characters and the ruins of Lordaeron was a raid. But alas, Thrall decided to take them in. (Seems to me that ever since the story of WoW started, Thrall just kept making exclusively bad choices.)\r
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Honestly, this whole story feels like it's being written specifically for Sylvanas. Not even the Horde, just Sylvanas. Characters that should be speaking up against her actions are just going along with it (looking at you, Baine and Lor'themar), the one character who does dissent follows it up by unceremoniously removing himself from the story (apparently Saurfang of all people would rather rot in a Stormwind prison than try to protect his Horde and its values), and the developers are doing Q&As insisting that she's not evil while she acts in a way that's stopping just short of burning down orphanages and raising the kids inside.\r
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Everyone's having their characterization and values derailed because they want to push a Sylvanas-centric story. I thought Illidan in Legion was bad enough for the way they handled the Xe'ra storyline, but this is basically that turned up to eleven.\r
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It is written specifically for Sylvanas and about Sylvanas. I would give it a pass at least if it made sense. But nothing here makes sense. You brought up the same points I did earlier. Baine and Lor'themar are suddenly automatons who do exactly what Sylvanas says without questioning it... and even without hesitation. Lor'themar is even enjoying it. I am certain they are trying to build him up as a bad guy all of the sudden. He even sounds like a generic mustache-twirling villain now. Just listen to the sound of his voice. You can only hear ego and no traces of empathy. That's the complete opposite of his character in MoP.\r
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(Also, I'm calling this now - even though Silvermoon is the only bastion of Horde power left on the Eastern Kingdoms, even though they're enough of a threat for the Alliance to want to deal with them, and even though the Alliance has an entire racial faction for whom Silvermoon is their former home and therefore have a vested interest in taking it... I bet none of that will ever be addressed except maybe in passing.)\r
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Yeah... Alliance now actually has two entire racial factions for whom Silvermoon is their former home. That is if not all High Elves transformed into Void Elves.\r
I am afraid the story will indeed ignore the sudden exposure of Silvermoon. It would be too story and content heavy for the WoW developers to include the fate of Silvermoon in this expansion. And since the content of WoW is so diverse now, they usually just pick and chose very few characters, locations and events to refer to, they create an isolated sub-universe around them, and then write story only for it. I get it that there is so much stuff in the game now that it's near impossible to update everything (I am certain that a "Cataclysm" kind of expansion that would update all the previous zones will never come again)... but I still think that their view should be a lot wider. Sometimes they even exclude characters and events they themselves built, like the black dragon prince being absent in Legion, Neptulon's fate... or they make insane plot-jumps like "Draenor is free!"\r
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I actually think it's even possible that Blizzard is outright lying about Sylvanas not being evil. Maybe they want to "surprise" us by reveling that she is indeed evil after all. I mean, they did the same thing during the Siege of Orgrimmar. They insisted that Vol'Jin wouldn't be the new Warchief. Instead, it would be "someone we least expected". And they said this when everyone was saying it would be Vol'Jin. Comentado por tupolew519 blow up the entire city? i don't think so. the undercity was to precious to sylvanas to destroy. Comentado por nonamegiven Even though I am a Horde player, I see it exactly the same.\r
Maybe I am a Horde player by mistake. I only got to Warcraft through Warcraft III and the Horde in Warcraft III was never outright evil.\r
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Nail on the head. The portrayal of the Horde as a collection of traditionally savage monstrous races looking to rise above their pasts and find a place for themselves in the world is what got me hooked on this game. No, we weren't all gumdrops and rainbows, there were still monsters among us. But by and large, we were trying to better ourselves. And apparently that sort of story got too hard to write, because we're going on, what, the fourth expansion where we either barely exist or are written as outright evil?\r
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The only race that seemed to be evil from the start were the Forsaken... And it didn't really make sense to me that they joined the Horde to begin with. Why would Orcs like undead humans anyway? I think it would make more sense if they were simply NPC characters and the ruins of Lordaeron was a raid.\r
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The Forsaken joined the Horde as a matter of convenience. Without the Horde the Forsaken would be entirely without allies in the world, and without the Forsaken the Horde would have no foothold on the Eastern Kingdoms. The effort to bring them in was spearheaded by the tauren, iirc, who believed they could find a cure for their undeath. There's still a cave in Thunder Bluff that's full of Forsaken.\r
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And even the Forsaken, while they were definitely the token "evil" teammate since the beginning, had nuance to them. Vanilla had quests where you help some of them find closure with their undeath and move on from their past lives, and even now you have characters like Leonid Bartholomew, Meryl Felstorm, and Alonsus Faol, who seem not to care for the machinations of the Banshee Queen. But there's been a definite shift towards a more unambiguously evil theme for them.\r
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It is written specifically for Sylvanas and about Sylvanas. I would give it a pass at least if it made sense. But nothing here makes sense. You brought up the same points I did earlier. Baine and Lor'themar are suddenly automatons who do exactly what Sylvanas says without questioning it... and even without hesitation. Lor'themar is even enjoying it. I am certain they are trying to build him up as a bad guy all of the sudden. He even sounds like a generic mustache-twirling villain now. Just listen to the sound of his voice. You can only hear ego and no traces of empathy. That's the complete opposite of his character in MoP.\r
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It also goes entirely against his character from post-Legion. Lor'themar's the sort who's generous enough to invite a champion of the Alliance who basically oozes void magic to the Sunwell because she's a "daughter of Silvermoon" and deserves at least that much respect. And I'm supposed to believe he's now fully on board with plaguing Horde soldiers and leaving them to die for no reason at all?\r
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Hell, am I supposed to believe he's fine with his city being left alone on a continent with a very angry Alliance? Was he even made privy to the whole "give up Undercity and the Eastern Kingdoms to the Alliance" plan? Because I have a very, very hard time believing he's willing to give up Silvermoon, and by extension the Sunwell, to the Alliance as part of Sylvanas' fool plan to isolate the Horde to Kalimdor and the Alliance to the Eastern Kingdoms (and then take aggressive actions in EK and Kul Tiras, thus completely defeating the purpose of said isolationism).\r
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I actually think it's even possible that Blizzard is outright lying about Sylvanas not being evil. Maybe they want to "surprise" us by reveling that she is indeed evil after all.\r
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And what would that mean for all the Horde leaders and champions who followed her every order without question? Even before he went completely off the deep end, Garrosh was meeting resistance and dissent from the other Horde leaders - the same Horde leaders who are apparently just fine with it when it's Sylvanas doing it. What's their excuse?\r
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It's pretty telling that a lazy rehash of the Siege of Orgrimmar story with Sylvanas instead of Garrosh, followed by another game of musical warchiefs, is our best-case scenario.\r
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(Side note: Reading the WoW General forums, it seems that something like half or more of the people who are all "YEAH SMASH ALLIANCE GO SYLVANAS" are blood elf players, which makes me laugh given how she just threw their entire race to the wolves story-wise.)\r
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blow up the entire city? i don't think so. the undercity was to precious to sylvanas to destroy.\r
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It's right there in the video and write-up, dude - her plan all along was to bring the Alliance into the ruins of Lordaeron and blow the place up with them in it. Any sentimental value Sylvanas has for Undercity is overshadowed by her desire to destroy the Alliance and raise more soldiers for her undead army. Comentado por Synea Sigh.....do people like you and Synea have this black and white mentality with everything? Being honorable doesn't inherently make you a good person. It makes you more likable, but still evil. For example Nosferatu Zodd (Berserk) was honorable but he was still evil. Genghis Khan had a code of honor as well, but still did awful things.He often gave people he was at war with a chance to surrender. You can have honor and still be evil.\r
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You are missing the fundamental point that the Horde's entire identity revolves around honour. Martial and personal honour. The kind where you keep your promises, you uphold your oaths and you don't start gratuitous wars, you don't disrespect your own soldiers and you don't indiscriminately attack civilians and children.\r
Honour can be many things, but this is how Horde honour is defined *by Blizzard in this game*\r
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Sylvanas goes against the entire identity of the Horde. And keep in mind if Lor'themar became Warchief and suddenly all races of the Horde became Light-worshippers living in elven spires and wearing togas I'd call that ridiculous too, because one leader should not subvert the cultures of an entire faction. But it at least wouldn't make me sick to my stomach like Sylvanas does.\r
Sylvanas' lack of honour isn't arbitrary. She isn't merely a pragmatist who has no time for ritual. She has no principles. She demonstrates time and again that the only thing that matters to her is herself, and maybe Nathanos because sociopaths usually do attach themselves to something they desire.\r
She doesn't care about the Horde. She doesn't care about the soldiers. She doesn't care about the Forsaken. She doesn't care about the consequences of her actions.\r
No it doesn't matter what Blizzard SAY. It doesn't matter what CLAIMS are made in or out of universe, what matters is her demonstrable actions.\r
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By the way, merely *saying* you have honour and actually having it are two different things.\r
To use in-universe examples, Garrosh SAID he had honour and had none, Saurfang says he has honour and actually demonstrates it with his actions. Comentado por Synea And even the Forsaken, while they were definitely the token "evil" teammate since the beginning, had nuance to them. Vanilla had quests where you help some of them find closure with their undeath and move on from their past lives, and even now you have characters like Leonid Bartholomew, Meryl Felstorm, and Alonsus Faol, who seem not to care for the machinations of the Banshee Queen. But there's been a definite shift towards a more unambiguously evil theme for them.

Yes the Forsaken started out as the dark, dour side of the Horde. The people who nobody trusted and who brought about disgust due to their appearance, but the same way the traditionally monstrous races of the Horde now were being portrayed in a new light, the Forsaken had a chance to show that something as even more stereotypically evil and destructive as undead could be something more.
And... well.. that's all been wasted now.

It also goes entirely against his character from post-Legion. Lor'themar's the sort who's generous enough to invite a champion of the Alliance who basically oozes void magic to the Sunwell because she's a "daughter of Silvermoon" and deserves at least that much respect. And I'm supposed to believe he's now fully on board with plaguing Horde soldiers and leaving them to die for no reason at all?

Hell, am I supposed to believe he's fine with his city being left alone on a continent with a very angry Alliance? Was he even made privy to the whole "give up Undercity and the Eastern Kingdoms to the Alliance" plan? Because I have a very, very hard time believing he's willing to give up Silvermoon, and by extension the Sunwell, to the Alliance as part of Sylvanas' fool plan to isolate the Horde to Kalimdor and the Alliance to the Eastern Kingdoms (and then take aggressive actions in EK and Kul Tiras, thus completely defeating the purpose of said isolationism).

It's really quite bizarre. When Saurfang discovers what Sylvanas is up to, Lor'themar should be right alongside him, even more furious than he.
Saurfang's indignation is based on the safety of his men and principle - Durotar and the orc population would still be relatively safe with this move.
Quel'thalas on the other hand would be in grave danger, and remember that Lor'themar had *only just* rejected an offer from Anduin to rejoin the Alliance out of hand, refusing to even listen to him (which makes no sense whatsoever but ok).
He has effectively thrown himself into the core of the Horde, and firmly stated he is an enemy of the Alliance... and now Sylvanas leaves him alone surrounded on all sides.... and he's just okay with that?

You know what the worst part is?
All of these issues wouldn't exist if they had just had the Alliance attack Undercity first.
The Alliance have means and motive. They could easily show that Anduin is pressured into retaking Lordaeron by the warhawks of the Alliance.
Hell they could keep Sylvanas blowing up Undercity even, emphasize it's a strategic move to weaken the Alliance forces enough that they can no longer threaten Quel'thalas for the time being.
You know, actually make her the cunning strategist and pragmatist they keep claiming she is. But no no, it's far better to portray her and the Horde as chaotic evil and then just say they're not evil in interviews. That works.

And what would that mean for all the Horde leaders and champions who followed her every order without question? Even before he went completely off the deep end, Garrosh was meeting resistance and dissent from the other Horde leaders - the same Horde leaders who are apparently just fine with it when it's Sylvanas doing it. What's their excuse?

It's pretty telling that a lazy rehash of the Siege of Orgrimmar story with Sylvanas instead of Garrosh, followed by another game of musical warchiefs, is our best-case scenario.

This right here is my biggest problem.
People keep saying "Oh, Lor'themar puts his people above all." and "Baine is deeply untrusting of Sylvanas!". But right here in-game all we see is the both of them robotically obeying Sylvanas and revelling in her atrocities.
The player must also go right along with this. Whereas in MoP you had your major faction interactions with others and Garrosh held you with barely concealed contempt, Sylvanas seems to regard the player as a trusted ally (quite how this comes about after directly threatening the Horde player's life then leaving the Horde player for dead and mocking them, then betraying the Horde player's attempt to meet with Eyir is not explained of course) so even if we're heading for an SoO2 situation, Blizzard are insisting on dirtying the player's hands by having us do Sylvanas' direct bidding!

I mean, who wouldn't want to serve waifu, right? \u00ac-\u00ac

(Side note: Reading the WoW General forums, it seems that something like half or more of the people who are all "YEAH SMASH ALLIANCE GO SYLVANAS" are blood elf players, which makes me laugh given how she just threw their entire race to the wolves story-wise.)

I've seen them. These are players who have no clue about Blood Elf lore. They are children who wanted to join the evil red faction but didn't want their avatar to be monstrous.
It's quite unfortunate that these kind of people seem to be BfA's target audience. Comentado por nonamegiven You know what the worst part is?
All of these issues wouldn't exist if they had just had the Alliance attack Undercity first.
The Alliance have means and motive. They could easily show that Anduin is pressured into retaking Lordaeron by the warhawks of the Alliance.
Hell they could keep Sylvanas blowing up Undercity even, emphasize it's a strategic move to weaken the Alliance forces enough that they can no longer threaten Quel'thalas for the time being.
You know, actually make her the cunning strategist and pragmatist they keep claiming she is. But no no, it's far better to portray her and the Horde as chaotic evil and then just say they're not evil in interviews. That works.

I'll do you one better. You don't even need to have the Alliance attack Undercity first (though that certainly would've helped). Just one minor change to the Stormheim questline would've make a world of difference story-wise.

Picture this: Sylvanas sends for the Horde player to meet her at Bladefist Bay. She offers the assistance of her fleet to aid you in acquiring the Aegis of Aggramar, saying she intends to make good on her promise to avenge Vol'jin. No mention of ulterior motives. While en route to Stormheim, Genn attacks the fleet, destroys Sylvanas' ship. Sylvanas washes up on shore, perhaps near a vrykul village, maybe near some ruins. Either way, there she learns of Eyir, the valkyra, Helya, and the Soulcage. That's when she hatches a plan to get the Soulcage and use it to enslave Eyir, effectively granting her immortality and an endless army of Forsaken. The worgen get wind of this plan and attack, ending with Genn destroying the Soulcage before she can use it to bind Eyir.

With one single alteration - Sylvanas only learns about the Soulcage after arriving in Stormheim, not prior to setting sail - the narrative changes.

Now Sylvanas has a more solid motive for initiating war against the Alliance - Genn attacked her and her forces unprovoked during a ceasefire in the middle of a war effort against a common world-destroying threat. She maintains her characterization as ruthless, cunning, and opportunistic, while still being a defensible figure in this particular instance.

Genn, meanwhile, while establishing himself as the aggressor, still has a believable, understandable, and arguably defensible motivation for the attack - after all, Sylvanas destroyed his kingdom, killed his son, and more recently caused the death of King Varian. (Yes, I know what happened on the Broken Shore, but it's been established that Genn and the rest of the Alliance don't. So to Genn, she's responsible.) In addition, the threat Sylvanas poses with the Soulcage is now a direct result of his own reckless actions - a monster of his own creation. A lesson against blindly seeking vengeance at all costs.

This is as opposed to what actually happened - Sylvanas (somehow) learned of the Soulcage well in advance, and offered her fleet to the player while fully intending to search for Helya herself from the get-go. Genn acted on intelligence found in a Forsaken wreck in Azsuna stating that she was up to no good, and attacked partly for revenge and partly to stop her from potentially becoming unstoppable. This makes Sylvanas undeniably the villain (as she was willing to enslave Eyir and potentially sabotage the entire effort to get the Aegis and by extension the entire war against the Legion for her own selfish goals), and Genn undeniably the hero (as he was simply acting to stop her from doing that).

By simply changing when Sylvanas learns of Helya and the Soulcage, the morality of the Stormheim conflict suddenly becomes much more gray, with both sides having understandable and relatable motivations, and serves as a more believable springboard for the events of BfA.

Bit too late to change that, though. *shrug* Comentado por thaarael - Orders us to blight a crowd of people that includes our own soldiers and tells us to leave them to die\r
- Blows up her own city\r
- Leaves Silvermoon alone on a continent full of extremely angry Alliance (recall that the entire reason blood elves are even in the Horde is because they felt abandoned by the Alliance, and also that they have seriously considered rejoining the Alliance before)\r
- Orders the brutal torture and slaughter of a farming\/fishing village in Stormsong to raise them as soldiers against the Kul Tirans and Alliance (you may recall that this sort of thing is literally why she was so hellbent on killing Arthas)\r
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At this point I'm pretty sure Sylvanas could stand on top of a mountain of smoldering orc corpses in the middle of Orgrimmar while eating a live baby and cackling maniacally, and y'all would still be like "she's just misunderstood".\r
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Even though I am a Horde player, I see it exactly the same.\r
Maybe I am a Horde player by mistake. I only got to Warcraft through Warcraft III and the Horde in Warcraft III was never outright evil. Maybe except for Grom Hellscream. I never understood why Thrall considered him a friend. And even his sacrifice felt rather selfish to me. Thrall even had to twist his last words to make them seem selfless.\r
But other than that, Warcraft III showed Orcs being enslaved by the Alliance or being held in concentration camps. Then they tried to escape and find a new home for themselves away from the Alliance. The founding of Durotar chapter showed the Kul Tirans specifically as not only the aggressors, but also people of dubious morals that tried to trick the Horde leaders into negotiation while planning to assassinate them before even officially declaring war. And when Jaina pleaded her father to stop, thinking that maybe he didn't even know about the peace agreement, he just responded that since Orcs were animals, there can never be peace. That to me was a very low blow. Trying to secretly start the war by crippling the Horde while Horde still believed they had truce with the Alliance... and later confess that the Alliance did indeed start the war and thinks that the entire Orcish race is simply to be eradicated because of who they are... morally, this didn't feel to me like a faction I would ever want to join.\r
I felt the same about the Blood Elf chapter. I had no idea why humans held such a contempt towards the elves. But they did.\r
The only race that seemed to be evil from the start were the Forsaken... And it didn't really make sense to me that they joined the Horde to begin with. Why would Orcs like undead humans anyway? I think it would make more sense if they were simply NPC characters and the ruins of Lordaeron was a raid. But alas, Thrall decided to take them in. (Seems to me that ever since the story of WoW started, Thrall just kept making exclusively bad choices.)\r
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Grom was Thrall's first mentor, who taught him about way of Orc tribes, and also a living legend among Orcs, as, similar to Orgrim, he was never captured by Alliance, and his clan, Warsongs, kept fighting. But this was covered mostly in novels, from Warcraft games you could only learn that they were friends and Thrall had great respect to Grom.\r
As for Founding of Durotar, this one is very tricky, and needs context of both Warcraft II and it's Beyond the Dark Portal expansion to be fully understood. Admiral's Proudmoore tactic was in fact repeat of Horde's action back from Second War, when Orgrim used same trick to bait out and kill Anduin Lothar, Supreme Commander of the Alliance, in prelude to battle under Blackrock Mountain. Also, hatred against Horde was both national and personal for admiral Proudmoore, for not only Kul Tiras navy had suffered great loses from enslaved red drakes fire during the war, but also his only son had died fighting the Horde near Baradin Bay.\r
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The actual depth of those stories, their moral greyness and nonobviousness were things that made Warcraft 3 and early WoW great. Again, shame that Blizzard lost at some point ability to make them... Comentado por Dracold The Forsaken joined the Horde as a matter of convenience. Without the Horde the Forsaken would be entirely without allies in the world, and without the Forsaken the Horde would have no foothold on the Eastern Kingdoms. The effort to bring them in was spearheaded by the tauren, iirc, who believed they could find a cure for their undeath. There's still a cave in Thunder Bluff that's full of Forsaken.\r
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Wait wait wait... The Tauren spearheaded the effort to bring Forsaken to the Horde? Because they believed they could find a cure for their undeath? You know, I remember encountering this "curing Forsaken of their undeath" dialog in-game only once... and it was Magatha Grimtotem who had this dialog. Yes, THAT Magatha Grimtotem that would later be proven to be one of the most evil individuals to ever exist and one who doesn't even care for her own people. Which means that this "curing Forsaken of their undeath" was probably a lie from the very beginning.\r
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Hell, am I supposed to believe he's fine with his city being left alone on a continent with a very angry Alliance? Was he even made privy to the whole "give up Undercity and the Eastern Kingdoms to the Alliance" plan?\r
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Lor'themar knew about that plan? And still behaved the way he did? If that's the case, then my theory that he's gonna turn out as the villain is taking on more realistic dimensions.\r
You know, I think it's probably too much even for Blizzard to make two raids of Orgrimmar. They will probably raid another city just to add more variety. And now it looks that the city they will raid now at the end of the expansion will be Silvermoon.\r
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It's pretty telling that a lazy rehash of the Siege of Orgrimmar story with Sylvanas instead of Garrosh, followed by another game of musical warchiefs, is our best-case scenario.\r
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And here I think that Blizzard will add some variety by not actually making us fight Sylvanas, but Lor'themar and \/ or Nathanos. They will probably weasel Sylvanas out of it with some lazy excuse... or with no excuse just like they did with alternative Grom Hellscream.\r
I think that will be the case because they obviously have some plan for her regarding Vol'Jin. He made her Warchief only because the Loa told him to. Why would they do that if she was just selfishly evil? I think that Blizzard writers still somehow believe she is not. And Sylvanas needs to be a Warchief to trigger at least one world changing event planned by the Loa. And I doubt it's just the destruction of few cities.\r
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It's right there in the video and write-up, dude - her plan all along was to bring the Alliance into the ruins of Lordaeron and blow the place up with them in it. Any sentimental value Sylvanas has for Undercity is overshadowed by her desire to destroy the Alliance and raise more soldiers for her undead army.\r
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You know, this demonstrates how she doesn't even care for the Forsaken, despite she keeps claiming so. Destroying the whole Undercity? Most Forsaken have no other home. Where will they live now? In Orgrimmar? In Thunderbluff? How is the link between Tauren and Forsaken going after Magatha killed Cairne? I can't even image how would that look like. I don't think this would be pleasant for either party.\r
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Sylvanas goes against the entire identity of the Horde. And keep in mind if Lor'themar became Warchief and suddenly all races of the Horde became Light-worshippers living in elven spires and wearing togas I'd call that ridiculous too, because one leader should not subvert the cultures of an entire faction. But it at least wouldn't make me sick to my stomach like Sylvanas does.\r
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This is the first thing that came to my mind after watching the CGI BfA attack on Undercity. I didn't see the Horde anywhere. While everyone in the comments was squealing in delight because of how it looked and how it was cool that Sylvanas screamed "FOR THE HORDE!", I just didn't see the Horde anywhere. I saw undead archers on top of a ruined city, I saw banshee with dark necromantic powers... gone was the look, feel and identity of the Horde. It gave me the Heroes of Might and Magic vibe instead. It looked like I watched a dark Dungeon faction fighting the holy human faction. Instead of Orcs, I saw Troglodytes, instead of Tauren, I saw Minotaurs. Instead of a Warchief, I saw a Dark Elf Warlock.\r
Again, I have no idea how are the Horde people on board with this. Both in-game and Horde players. Comentado por Sorenthaz "The Horde is worth saving" -She said as she killed the Horde who died defending her city, which she then blows up, after the fact she destroyed the night elf capital despite knowing that Lordaeron is the closest target the Alliance could get to which was why she was opposed to the Theramore Bombing back in MoP. \r
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Garrosh 2: Electric Undead Boogaloo\r
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Honestly how could it be expected differently at this point? Sylvanas hasn't changed her ways, and she tried to do her same usual behind-the-scenes schemes in Legion but failed and got caught by Greymane. Now she's pretty much going to take her 'end justifies the means' mentality and run the Horde into the ground much like Garrosh. Blizzard has carefully been keeping her stuff to the side but it was only a matter of time before it exploded. They can't hide her forever, and she's gonna have to pay for the stuff she's done. \r
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Also conveniently Thrall is a major character in BfA so it's probably going to end with him taking over the Horde again if Sylvanas does fall. Comentado por lemanz you are *!@#in alliance %^&*.. i hope sylvannas slay all of your family to the root\r
FOR THE HORDE!\r
\/spit Comentado por Rilgon It also goes entirely against his character from post-Legion. Lor'themar's the sort who's generous enough to invite a champion of the Alliance who basically oozes void magic to the Sunwell because she's a "daughter of Silvermoon" and deserves at least that much respect. And I'm supposed to believe he's now fully on board with plaguing Horde soldiers and leaving them to die for no reason at all?\r
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In fairness, I do not attribute it to "no reason at all" but more "I'm Sylvanas 'Too Lazy To Prosecute A Real War, Let's Use WMDs' Windrunner and if you don't do what I say I will blight your lands into unusability and raise your people as my thralls" being a very compelling argument to betray what are otherwise fairly ironclad morals.\r
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If a sociopath with an unstoppable chemical weapon tells you to jump, you probably ask how high, as much as it may disgust you.\r
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I do find it hysterical that it's not the WMDs that are offending people, though, but the fact that she's raising Horde soldiers. Who cares about the other side, especially the civvies, amirite? Comentado por Sakura7 Not sure if this is the right post or if someone already talked about it...but initially, when Sylvanas becomes warchief, it seemed that she would do something super important for the Horde cause the Loa spirits said it. \r
Then she does basically nothing in Legion...\r
Appears again in BfA cinematic and when she says "alliances forged and broken" the word "broken" sounds with anger on her voice, like she was not the one who broke the alliance during Legion, all the rest of the thing she says, made me think that even if she has that evil selfish personality, there's a more complicated story behind everything.\r
The images of the burning of Teldrassil showed weapons that didn't look like Horde and many of us had a bunch of theories that it couldn't just be Sylvanas burning it. I still have to play this scenario though but during Alpha it was said that it's just the Horde who go there and create the mess.\r
I really hope there's more to the story than what it looks like so far, some complex plot underneath, something that makes sense with the Loa and BfA cinematic. Comentado por galbsadi I thought that with the decimation of Teldrassil that the retaking of Lordaeron would at least give some salve to that wound, but it would seem that Blizzard would even deny the Alliance that relief.How can you take it as unfair that you don't get one more city than the Horde?\r
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Get your head out of the us vs. them faction mindset for one second and realise what they're referring to is that Sylvanas loses Undercity on her terms and not the Alliance's.\r
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Sylvanas starts the war. \r
Sylvanas burns Teldrassil.\r
Sylvanas blows up Undercity and evidently Lordaeron along with it.\r
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Everything begins and ends with Sylvanas. The Alliance merely gets to react to her grandstanding and the Horde gets to follow blindly.\r
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We....don't know this yet, actually. (not saying you're wrong, but you're also not necessarily right.)\r
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At this point in the beta, the battle for Lordaeron has happened, but Teldrassil is untouched in-game. Could be that they haven't put Teldrassil in yet (or that they're not going to)...but it could also be that things happen in another direction. After all, Anduin is following Jaina, who's enough of a traitor that her own people in Kul Tiras arrest her for treason upon arrival... Comentado por AkimKurai So basically this is where Sylvanas shows she doesn't care about honor which causes people like Saurfang seeing her as unfit for the role of Warchief. The problem is that the concept of honor is very subjective. From her and other's perspective it's honorable to run and live to fight another day and kill your enemies by any means necessary (such as using Blight on them) to ensure survival. Other more hard-lined people see this as utter cowardice, and particularly Orcish culture is very hard-lined about their perspective of honor. She can't be compared to Garrosh yet because she hasn't turned against her own faction, she's just using them in a way that plenty of them will disagree with. She'd be fine with Saurfang if he fell in line.\r
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Basically this is just another grey-area for Blizzard to cause conflict inside a faction with so that we're undecided who's right or wrong on the subject even though it's entirely subjective so nobody is. These grey-areas will be a major theme in BfA to keep the drama and war going, it seems.\r
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+1 Comentado por viktorhades90 I would gladly follow lady sylvanas and help her eliminate her enemies may it be the horde and the alliance and if there was an option to choose between her and the horde i would choose her Comentado por BigPapaBear Well if this is how it plays out, first the horde attack Teldrassil, then the alliance attack Lordaeron in retaliation only for Sylvanas to go all *lich king* kill players from both sides to raise them as skeletons to fight for her I am gonna be really pissed off. I play alliance characters but I am tired of it always being the horde who are the bad guys. It's about time someone in alliance went all Garrosh.
And I used to have a lot of respect for the dark lady but Blizz have turned her into Garrosh mark 2 and made her a real monster with this and we know how that all ended so I reckon her days are numbered.

Really tired of the horde always being the bad guys Blizz ... Comentado por JarlWolfe Sylvanas.. what have you done?\r
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Saurfang 2020. Comentado por twocows My guess is either deliberate misinformation from Blizzard and we'll see significant changes when the quests actually go live, or it turns out old gods are manipulating the leaders of the Horde. Comentado por Lisq33 Yeah, the good people always get unlucky...

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