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10.2.5
PTR
10.2.6
Protribution DPS
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Post by
388698
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Maybe you had the perfect storm of buffs, but I don't see how.
Using Hammer of the Righteous as an example:
Your Armory dps is 511.
Add in talents from Divine Strength - that gives you an extra 239.5 strength, or 479 AP.
Improved Gift of the Wild will provide an extra 52 strength, or 104 AP.
Kings will provide an extra 10% on top of your Divine Strength amount (1836), or 184 strength, for 368 AP.
Improved Blessing of Might will provide an extra 687 AP.
Strength of Earth totem increases by Strength by 155, or 310 AP.
That's a total increase of: 1948AP, or an extra 140 dps, giving you a total of 650dps.
So your HotR should be doing about 2600 damage per hit.
Add on a 10% increase from One Handed Weapon Specialisation makes it 2860.
Add on 6% from Crusade makes it 3031 (I don't think it's supposed to stack like this).
Add on 25% from Avenging Wrath makes it 3789 damage per hit.
Even when both of your trinkets proc, that would only increase the damage from 3789 to 4553 per hit, for a whopping 10-15 seconds, and only when you're AW'ing at the same time. I can't see how you got an average of 5900, unless you were including crits in your average.
Even then, the only time you'd crit for over 8k would be when a trinket procs - Greatness has a 45 second cooldown, so on average, you'd be getting 1/3 of the benefit, or about 66 damage per hit over the cycle (not incl Avenging Wrath).
Pyrite Infuser also has a 45 second cooldown, giving you 274AP on average over the cycle (assuming you crit and it procs immediately after cooldown expires). This should give you an extra 91 damage per hit over the cycle (not incl Avenging Wrath).
So on average, your trinkets should be upping your overall damage per hit to 3188. You've got crits of 30% plus talents of 7% from the Ret tree (including Heart of the Crusader), so total of 37% crit. That should push your average damage hit to 4368 or so. Avenging Wrath takes you to 4641 damage per hit over the cycle.
A snapshot of your character sheet from in-game once you're fully raid buffed might be helpful in understanding where all your damage actually came from - mathematically, I can't see how you got what you did from the armory you provided. Having said that, 770 dps from HotR sounds about right as far as about 20% of dps goes if you got 3600, but if the average hits aren't right, I'm wondering what else isn't right too.
Post by
179128
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
One more thing... Ive noticed that if your in a raid with a few undergeared DPS, your own personal dps will be higher due to the fact that youll get more dmg in since the mobs do not die so fast. What kinda dps did the other players pull and what class were they?
I don't see why. Your DPS should remain the same, assuming that you're getting a full rotation of attacks in. If anything, a prolonged fight will reduce your dps, as your cooldown abilities (eg, Avenging Wrath) get averaged out over a longer period of time.
30 second blocks:
Block DPS Average DPS
1 125 125
2 100 112.5
3 100 108.33
4 100 106.25
5 125 110
6 100 108.33
7 100 107.14
8 100 106.25
Post by
179128
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Damage done will change, definitely. But dps? I fail to see why you would do more damage per second just because other dps'ers are better or fails...
After logging into WoW just then, I just realised how full of fail my comments on Avenging Wrath were. For some reason, I thought it was 25% over 30 seconds, rather than 20% over 20 seconds. But that only hurts the argument more...
Post by
388698
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Eudemonia
I'm really quite confused by what you're trying to do here; looking at your armory I initially thought you were tanking, and marveled that you were able to be kept up with only 440 defense. Then I realized you were just DPSing... and really got confused.
What's the point of this spec/gear setup? If you went ret, with the gear you have access to, you could clearly be doing more DPS, and you clearly can't tank without changing gear/spec. I mean, you're doing the entry level 10 man instance with gear from the highest level 10 man, of course you're able to do decent DPS. If you were using a ret weapon and ret spec, the presumption is you would do more then decent DPS.
Moving on to comments on the spec, if in fact your idea is to use this spec to DPS, some talent points that are of issue;
-Reckoning 4/5: since you're DPSing (i.e. not getting hit) these points are essentially wasted.
-Improved Righteous Fury, Improved Hammer of Justice, Guardian's Favor, Stoicism: Uh, why? Is this some sort of PvP spec? From your introduction I thought this was for PvE...
-Benediction 5/5: considering you have Guarded by the Light and 2/2 SA, these could be put elsewhere.
There's more, but I'd like to hear more about what you're trying to do here; Like I said, my initial thought that this was simply a high DPS tank spec was wrong, so why try this?
Your talents are internally inconstant; you have reckoning, improved RF, BoSanct and Holy shield, all of which are useless when not taking hits, but you have no points in anticipation or deflection, so you're obviously not planning on taking hits...
Post by
svirve
What I find odd is that no one has pointed out so far is the lack of..
Rotation/FCFS priority.
How much DPS are you pulling in a ret spec and replacing your prot pieces with ret ones?
Stat priority.
Is SoB really the optimal Seal for this setup?
Were you not using AS and Exo? They're both glyphed but dont appear in your top4 damage done.
Do you have a WWS report? Are you able to get one?
What gear is needed to pull this off?
Will it be able to compete with equally geared players of another class?
So far the discussion seems to be more like "NAAAAH that cant be true!" instead of trying to figure out how this is optimized and then from a theoritical point of view being able to say "It's just not really working Ret does considerably more DPS on an equal gear level" or perhaps "Zomglolzorxwtf! That spec is liek BBQ sauce with a side of bacon!".
Atleast I would like to hear more of this. If it's possible to adapt this into a raid situation with success we can whine even more when blizzard nerfs our retection spec!
Post by
388698
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Fulgurah
To go along with what svirve (<3) was saying above, there are a lot of questions here, but I think these two are the most interesting:
(1) Go full Ret, grab a two-hander, and put on ret pieces -- what is your dps then? Odds are, it's going to be higher.
(2) What does a "Retection" spec bring that a normal Prot or Ret pally does not bring? My answer here is nothing. While you may be able to OT, you won't be as effective as a full Prot Pally. Your DPS will be lower than full Ret spec. Your utility will be drastically lower than either a full Prot or Ret. So what's the point?
To squish: your DPS can flucuate based on how good the rest of your party is based on a couple of different things, but mainly buff up-time, specifically with trinkets and Hero/BL. If my guild kills Patch25 in 2:30, I will get two on-use trinket rotations (once at the beginning, once in HoW range), or roughly 20% of the fight, and a 30% Hero/BL uptime. If my guild kills Patch 25 in 3:30, I will still only get two on-use trinket rotations, now representing 15% uptime, and only a 21% Hero/BL uptime. I am simply going to do more DPS in the first scenario because there is more time when my DPS is "optimized", while in significant portions of the latter scenario, I will be without Hero or trinkets and relying on rather static DPS.
Frankly, I do not disbelieve the numbers he pulled with this "spec." But if you really wanted this to be the new "Shockadin," wherein a lot of players yearn to play it for really no logical or discernable reason other than being different, there is a lot to work on. Start with svirve's post.
Post by
388698
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Victarious
I'm with svirve, I think this is a cool build and as a pally myself, want to know more about it. But fail, try to understand that a on a forum (seemingly) populated largely by raiding 80s, the initial responses are going to be skepticism and doubt. Instead of telling us to be "positive and constructive," a WWS or some more info might be nice. Don't be high-handed just because you may have found something new and unique.
Having said that, keep it up, and I'm looking forward to hearing your results from Naxx25. Good luck!
Post by
svirve
Judge > Consecrate > SoTR > HoTR > Exo > AS > Judge > SoTR > HoTR > Consecrate
To my understanding you're using this as a real rotation and not FCFS (please correct me if im wrong).
969 is the highest TPS rotation which simply could translate to the highest DPS rotation (i know TPS != DPS).
Have you tried using a 969 exo/as SUB rotation? I think you could get even better results.
Or perhaps after your naxx 25 run today looking at what spells are doing the most damage and use a FCFS priority system always prioritizing the spell that has the highest percentage damage done.
In you're OS 10 per example:
FCFS: ShoR > HotR > Exo > Judge > AS > Cons (the last three i placed as i thought they would've appeared on your damage done list)
If you can get a hold of a WWS report of your raid tonight that would be very delightful to check out!
I do agree with you so far that, i wish people would stop making me out to be a liar or that its a joke. I can assure you this is very real, and that with some more positive input, this could easily be a 4500+ Dps build. My gear is just what i slopped together from what i had... this is literally something i put together in about 4 hours... did some dummy tests and decided to give it a try.
Actually it's not that they were calling you out to be lying or decieveing. It's more that it's sooo much more rewarding to smack someone back to funkytown with some hard ass facts to back you up ;p
On a more serious note though if this turn out to be working it's good to be able to say that i helped develop this.
Protribution sounds better since you actually are a prot paladin but you're not tanking.
Edit:
Not to be picky but it would be nice to know
How much DPS are you pulling in a ret spec and replacing your prot pieces with ret ones?
Stat priority?
What gear is needed to pull this off?
Post by
388698
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
@ Inertius - note what I said - the longer a fight goes on, the more likely your DPS is going to be lower. I fully agree that in a short fight, you'll blow your cooldowns and get your boosted DPS, averaged over a shorter period. But Atremini was arguing that fail DPS in the group, extending the fight, would increase your DPS, which is silly from a theoretical point of view. You're basically agreeing with what I'm saying :)
@ failblog - Protribution is much better - Retection sounds like something that could literally be pulled out of one's... ok, never mind :)
As for my skepticalness, when I read the numbers, I wasn't convinced, because they didn't add up to me. I don't really care about the size of one's crits - it's like comparing the size of one's epeen (which is basically what it is - the "W00T 18K CRIT MUAHAHAHA" attitude). So when I read average, I read it as average damage, not average crit size, because from a data perspective, average crit size is meaningless unless you know your crit % as well.
I'll also note that I made the comment that the numbers did seem to stack up on the basis of dps and % damage that the analysis of HotR came out with. So I still stand by my comments that I made earlier. Your initial post could possibly have been clearer in what you were explaining when it came to quoting numbers.
(btw - 12k crit = Shaman, Lava Burst?)
Anyway... down to the theorycrafting.
I agree 100% with svirve on the rotation - a Protribution pally has Prot talents, and it's been well established mathematically that a 9-6 rotation Exo sub is the highest threat rotation, due to maximum up time on HotR and ShoR. If there's another Prot pally in the group, you'd want to use a glyphed AS in lieu of one of the 4 Judgement slots as well in a 36 second cycle, since someone else can keep the debuff up on a boss.
Gearing wise, strength isn't going to offer that much to Block Value - you're going to see it more in your AP. BV is currently 2 strength to 1 BV? That equates to 1.6 extra damage (with 30% extra from Redoubt, and 130% weighting from ShoR), or 2.66 dps. Compare that to 40 AP, which gives you an extra 2.8 dps on white damage alone.
Let's look at the stats order:
You've currently got about 40-45% crit at the moment. So your non-crit damage will be about 3800 / 1.40 = 2700dps or so. This is important to work out how much value that extra crit rating will actually give you. 1% extra crit should give you an extra 1% of 2700 (as opposed to 1% of 3800, which some people might think).
Increase in attack power will lead to increase in weapon dps, which leads to an increase in HotR damage. HotR does 4x weapon dps, so an increase in weapon DPS of 1 will lead to a following increase of HotR damage by 4, and therefore HotR dps by 0.66667.
Increase in attack power will also lead to an increase in Seal of Blood damage. You're using a weapon with a 1.6 sec swing timer, so a 1dps increase will lead to a 1.6 dmg increase. This leads to a 1.6*0.48 = 0.768 damage increase in direct SoB damage, and 0.416 damage increase in Judgement damage. Then, you also get the 14AP towards Judgement, which gives you an extra 1.54 damage, or total of 1.956 extra damage.
Using a 9-6 rotation, this equates to 1.956 / 9 = 0.217 dps on Judgement and (9 / 1.6 (white hits) + 3 (HotR/ShoR))*0.768 / 9 = 0.736 dps on direct SoB damage. Total 0.953 extra dps on Seal of Blood, on 14AP.
Haste will only improve your white damage and 65% of your SoB direct damage (since you get almost two white hits for each HotR/ShoR hit). So based on the current numbers, where melee damage is 15% and SoB is 15%, that's 25% of dps, or 900dps that haste can improve. 1% haste will give 9 dps extra.
Block value items - 1 BV on an item gives you 1.6 damage on your ShoR, which is 0.2667 dps.
So far:
Crit is crit. Crit is good. 1% crit is about 27 dps (on existing - that'll do for now).
14AP gives you bonuses to white damage (1dps), Seal of Blood (0.953 dps), Hammer of the Righteous (0.667 dps), for a total of 2.62 dps.
7 Strength gives you the same bonuses as 14 AP (2.62 dps), but also gives you BV too (7/2*1.6/6 = 0.9 dps). Plus, with Divine Strength, it all multiplies by 1.15, giving you a total of 4.048 dps.
(svirve - your cap sticky is now going to prove immensely useful :))
To get an extra 100 dps, you need:
3.7% crit, or 170 crit rating (or 192 agi, if you want)
173 Strength on items (as opposed to listed, since we've factored in the bonus from Divine Strength)
534 Attack Power (not including that gained from Strength).
11% Haste, or 361 haste rating
375 Block Value
Haste would be a waste of time - it will only increase the speed in which your white damage is done, and it might make your GCDs that bit shorter to make your 9-6 rotation run more smoothly. It seems the best way is to get bonuses from Strength items and gear up like a Ret pally. The huge damage from ShoR is likely to be from the block on the shield itself.
Take the boots you're wearing at the moment for example:
74 Strength gives you around 43 dps.
77 Block Value gives you around 20 dps.
20 dps could be 32 Crit rating instead - probably easier to find?
Feel free to pick my numbers apart - this is just what I'm working out on the fly. I haven't factored in SP benefits from stamina yet, nor have I considered Exorcism and Avenger's Shield and the uptime on those - all this is on a pure 9-6 rotation. Once you establish the rotation you want to use, some of the numbers will change (eg, dps from Judgement, if it's being swapped out with Exo).
Edit : argh, just realised that all the damage increase from AP and Strength etc will also scale with crit rating. So an extra 100dps from Strength will actually end up being about an extra 140dps on the current set up. Gah.... never mind, this is just an initial thoughts process. Suggestions remain the same - there's more benefit in gearing up like a pure Ret pally, but with a high block value shield and a strong one-hander.
Edit: fixed up the strength/BV numbers.
Post by
svirve
What im mostly looking forward to as of now is a WWS report or a breakdown of a recount log this way it's possible to build weight scales dependant on how much damage each ability does and to build an optimal rotation/FCFS priority. (I know i'm nagging about the WWS report/recount log ;p)
Since both of my high level (70&80) paladins are on hold atm and my most recent one is only level 29 so far. I cant really help much with testing. None of my higher level paladins have appropriate gear for that matter.
The problem i see with stacking BV to increase ShoR damage is that you need to spend 9 (9.23) item points in order to get 6 blockvalue and thus 1 DPS from ShoR. And putting that into STR instead would give you almost 1.3 (1.28 to be exact) raw DPS plus the 4.5 BV which also adds to ShoR DPS.
Edit:Thanks for doing the math for me Squishy ;p
Post by
388698
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
Even though you're right that was one of the more unnecessary quotes i've seen so far.
(svirve - your cap sticky is now going to prove immensely useful :))
I thought it always was? ;p
Also dont forget that BV only weights in at 0.65 as a stat while all ratings and stats are 1.
Though the str will still be more desirable than BV.
Edit: Oh darn you squishy. Just because it's middle of the day were you live doesnt mean i can sit and theory craft with you when it's 3 am here >.< I'll nit pick your bony ass tomorrow when im a bit less tired than i am now.
Post by
Squishalot
Even though you're right that was one of the more unnecessary quotes i've seen so far.
(svirve - your cap sticky is now going to prove immensely useful :))
I thought it always was? ;p
Also dont forget that BV only weights in at 0.65 as a stat while all ratings and stats are 1.
Though the str will still be more desirable than BV.
Edit: Oh darn you squishy. Just because it's middle of the day were you live doesnt mean i can sit and theory craft with you when it's 3 am here >.< I'll nit pick your bony ass tomorrow when im a bit less tired than i am now.
LOL, true that. Looking forward to it - my numbers are rough as guts.
2 str = 1 block value
Are you sure about that? The Armory Strength tooltip says that it increases Block by 79 (based on your strength of 1597). Though I'm seeing lots of comments backing up what you're saying. I'll go back later and edit again - it only goes to back up that you should be stacking high Str items instead of BV items if you have to make a choice between the two though.
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